10-04-2012 11:51 AM
It seems that after reading your thread, in full, at least twice, you are not having much luck with a simple answer to a simple question.
As a full disclosure, we have been tasked by one of our founders, whose eye you have caught with your ongoing issues thread, to pop in and see how you have or have not progressed with matters.
The main issues you seem to be experiencing are not singular at VF, they are in fact happening a lot, to a lot of VF clients.
The main answer you seek, would in fact appear to be one based on "Clarity" all you would like to do it actually find out "What" it is you feel you have been billed / charged for and "How", both of these questions in themselves are in fact easy to answer under most circumstances, but together, more difficult!
1) Have you requested a full SAR 10 data release from:
a) Vodafone UK
b) China Mobile (for and on behalf of VF UK)
c) RIM UK
A cost is incurred in these, but is a great starting point, each provider has 42 days in total to provide the information held on your contract & personal files, if they do not comply, you can then take a step to further release of data under the FOI act.
This would be a way forward to start to compile a "Matter of Facts" disclosure for your ongoing journey.
Our interest in this would be to see, how with a little statistical and polling server log use data, you can move forward to prove or not prove you were in fact:
3) Fibbing & were watching reruns of "China's Got Talent" Lol!
Next step can follow, if and when you reply...
If you have come to a "Resolution" with VF, please let us all know!
We have a number of ways of helping, as our username suggests, our founders hold control of a very large client base of interested VF investors, this always brings a small light to an impossible path at blue chip companies, if a suggestion of shares move from buy to SELL!
10-04-2012 12:19 PM
Why did I choose Ratmanhk as a username?? Well there is a reason but it's a long story.
Thank you for your post and I have to say I'm not completely clear who it is you have been "tasked" by but I'll assume it's a hedge fund manager who would benefit hugely from a massive dip in Vodafone shares if there was solid information leaked to the press that they happily scam their customers. !! Lol. No seriously, who is it?
In response to your questions..
I have sent a request in writing for all Data held by Vodafone regarding myself and my account. I have heard nothing and it will be 42 days by the end of this week. I will then send the same request again but this time "Recorded Delivery" and wait again. I am not holding my breath.
I thought about requesting the same thing from RIM UK but I sort of hoped Vodafone might perform this task for me as I'm sure they have a better relationship that I have an after all I'm not a direct customer of RIM ? I don't pay them directly.
I have a sort of "Matter Of Facts" file building up and I of course have the handset which if all else fails I can send for independent testing. Vodafone offered to run a test on the handset but they revealed at the last minute that doing this would wipe all the memory. How convenient!
My next step was to drive to Newbury and sit in reception until Stefan Langkamp agreed to have a "recorded" meeting with me.
Any further advice would be appreciated.
Oh.. worth mentioning. I have agreed a payment plan with VF and have made 2 payments of around £200 against this bill. I have made them put a note on the account that I am paying this under duress and this is not an admittion that I agree with the bill. The idea being once I have paid the £1,109.00 I was going to try and recover it through Small Claim Court.
I need my number .. I have had it for 5 years the whole time I have been building my business and so all my customers have it.
10-04-2012 01:09 PM
Don' t assume that by what i am saying in my posts, that i dont sympathise with your predicament, I do.
I am not paid by or a user of Vodafones services.
I left Vodafone and joined o2 as a customer about 18 months ago due to o2 having a better signal at my home address.
What i do have though is a knowledge of Mobile Telephony services due to the line of work that i do.
My comments are based soley on the information that i have read in your threads and the replies given by Vodafone.
You state that the usage is impossible based on your average data consumption, but when roaming the handset is liable to perform software updates behind the scenes, these updates dont require any confirmation from the user and are a built in function of the handset called "always on internet". it is the bane of smartphone users especially those roam. This is caused by smartphones roaming overseas being set up for UK systems, so when it detects a "foreign" network, the handset will look for updates from the "foreign" network to ensure the handset is compatible with the roaming network.
This results in very large amounts of data being transferred, which can be viewed on the itemisation. Unfortunately as i mentioned before, the Data protection act prevents vodafone from disclosing the Sites visited etc, so they have to limit what they can add to the size of the data transferred.
Vodafone Have already confirmed in writing that they will not discuss your account.
By all means, try and speak with Stefan Langkamp, but it is highly unlikely that it will happen, given what Vodafone have already advised you.
10-04-2012 01:10 PM
Its all good saying that it is Vodafone's fault however proving that is something else i believe, i think you would find that the device attempted on numerous occasions to establish a connection with the blackberry service and was only able to upload data (my theory anyway).
Problem with the blackberry? there are multiple points of failure of which quite a few of them are not on the Vodafone network or other operators networks, its possible that Vodafone established a successful connection hence the data charges however the relative files required to acknowledge the connection were never received.
I do not know enough about the blackberry infrastructure to confirm this its just a theory.
Sorry i could not offer anything else really.
10-04-2012 01:40 PM - edited 10-04-2012 01:41 PM
Lol! Rat is good enough reason to be called Rat!
Ok, to clear any doubt regarding "Why" this is of interest... nothing to do with Hedge and money makers moving any market holdings either way to benefit anyone in anyway, something much simpler than that and one that will remain within VF TOS here and through the corporate connections.
So you have "written" off for your data with VF, have you physically requested a full SAR 10 release of all information archived and held to date within the last 8 years, from VF? If not, inline with your written request, send one of these with a PO or CHQ for £10 made out to VF (do this regardless of any previous requests) http://goo.gl/7g9YZ
You also need to do the same with RIM UK and China Mobile faob ofVF UK
Once you have said data, regardless of how long you need to wait for it, this will then allow tower ip hops to be cross matched on the tower logs for acces on the secure data tunnel used to "Push" to your BB.
Simply put, if XXXmb of information was backhauled to your device, across an ip stack range "Outside" of your device, you did not use / access the data billed for.
Time consuming, boring, cross data manipulation, but an easy start to "Showing" you may or may not have used the ported feed.
All RIM servers are protected under various "Non European" TOS for release of data, this however, will not include "Your" access logs from VF CDN servers in China and should be a starting point for VF to compile a log for the use of the device. So if your device polls IP XXX.XXX.XX.99 and it is showing on the log as being on IP XXX.XXX.XX.12 making a call to your family on the same day, the backhaul has been hijacked.
Now as to who is "Responsible" your device, as stated by esteemed VF helpers is a gift, your SIM contract is however... not, thus you are under contract for the use of said SIM only, what device you use it in, is not part of any contract, unless you are lumbbered with an iPhone LoL! The sim, polling the VF service on China Mobile, through the CONTRACT that VF have with RIM is the part that will help you in the future, this means that the pushed data is sent, under the backhaul agreement VF have with RIM for roaming.
Your sim and how it has been accessed by RIMs secure data encryption service will clearly show, who or how the data was pushed, NOT what the data is, which we assume is the answer you long for.
10-04-2012 03:43 PM
Thanks NightFalcon .. you're a real consumer champion!
I don't care what Vodafone say anymore I will make every attempt to find out what the data is myself and build a case.
If you have been scammed for £1,109.00 what's another £30.00 !!! I spent £60.00 on phone calls to them while in China last year trying to find out what was going on!!
Anyway. I have sent both letters by courier today with cheques enclosed. 42 days and counting. The one to China Mobile my be a little more difficult.
11-04-2012 10:05 AM - edited 11-04-2012 10:06 AM
Good luck with your endeavours. Assuming your phone did use that much data, how will you prove that the use was unintentional? Also if you were in China on business, any chance you could claim it on expenses from your company?
Otherwise have you looked at going via the Small Claims Court procedure? Or getting legal advice to see if you have a good chance of winning or a settlement?
No matter how many times one travels, the general advice is to switch data/roaming off when abroad and try to use Wi-Fi whenever possible, or get a local sim card and go from there. Outside the EU, roaming rates are just too high to justify using network data.
11-04-2012 10:17 AM
I think the proof lies in the historic and subsequent data usage, if it was intentional how is it it's never happened before and not since.
I have been away a lot since FEB 2011 and purposely left data roaming on all the time and this has never happened again. If it was 25MB in one day and they hit me for £15.00 or even £30.00 I would think "Strange spike - Alarm bells - Send the phone back" I would have done a deal with them and paid it. The thing with this is it's 243MB. 300 times over my average daily usage. You have to assume this is a mistake. It's like getting a gas bill for £2,500.00 one month. There's only so many showers you can have in a day!!
I am going to go through small claims court when this is all over just for the sake of it and I'll try and get as much media attention as I can. I'm thinking of taking an advert out in a national newspaper with a picture of my bill and a quick explanation. I don't think there's anything to stop me doing that is there. Last minute deal would only cost me £400.00. This has gone beyond money for me. I'm livid.
All that needs to happen is someone from Vodafone to ring me (not write emails to me) and explain, what the data might have been, how this can happen and why it has never happened before or after. Show me proof that this usage has happened to someone else before in China, in this time frame on this handset. That's all! Not hard.I'll b*gger off then.
11-04-2012 04:24 PM
11-04-2012 04:44 PM
All these links are fantastic reading, but as numerous people have already highlighted, completely pointless.
Just because the average data usage for a survey of people shows nothing like the usage you have incurred, doesn't mean that you are not liable for the payment which you owe.
Vodafone have already stated, very matter of fact, that they will not discuss this further.
I can only admire your fruitless endeavour and wish you the best of luck.
Just out of interest regarding the average iPhone user's data allowance, my average iPhone use regularly exceeds 500Mb per month so that article is absolute bobbins.
11-04-2012 05:05 PM
Thank you again for your support it means a lot... haha.
You tell me what you would do? Would you just pay £1,109.00 straight out of your account knowing full well you didn't use the data? Or even if the data is proved to have been sent to your phone, you didn't want it, see it or ask for it. Would you just lie down and pay it?
I don't know how VF can just say they won't discuss this further. It's not something they can just walk away from. They keep using the same old excuse about how it's been to OTELO but OTELO haven't even looked into the data usage. I'm starting to wander if telling me to go to OTELO played straight into VF's hands. They knew they just had to show the IMEI matched and the pointless Ombudsman with no clout would just roll over. Once they came back with their recommendation all VF had to do was to keep refering me back to that.
Why did OTELO recommend 25% off the bill ?? Surely if they saw no problem with the data usage and thought it was all above board they would recommend I paid the full wack!
11-04-2012 05:29 PM
Otelo can offer assistance such as a recommendation of a reduction in the bill. The reason they do this is to hopefully find a resolution suitable to both parties. What they are saying is, you are refusing to pay the full amount, so if a reduction can be agreed then Vodafone will at least get some payment towards the balance. And then you also get a reduction in the amount you have to pay.
Vodafone will also offer to spread the cost out over upto 6 months to assist in repayments.
I also stated in a previous post that i did sypathise with you under these circumstances as, I know from experience from the job i do, that numerous customers on all networks get caught out by these kind of "abnormalities" caused by the "oh so wonderful" smartphone always on data facility.
By all means put all the time and effort that you wish into this, but my point is that it will be probably wasted and you will still have to pay the bill.
If you do get a beneficial outcome then fair play to you and i'm sure you would be deserving.
I dont condone how International mobile networks charge for usage especially data, but that isn't the fault of Vodafone/o2/everyone everywhere etc.
These companies are at ransom to accept these charges or accept that customers cannot roam overseas, which in turn will be bad for business (business customers who travel the globe and can't use their mobile would not be pleased!!).
And that brings me back to the dreaded "Smartphones". iPhones, Blackberry etc are all designed to benefit the companies that produce these, with little thought for the end user. Why would the average joe who goes on holiday with the jolly boys to benidorm need alway on data services?
My point is, that that service is not implemented by the networks and they have no control over this feature.
Most customer service reps would recommend that the user turns the data roaming function "off", thus preventing excessive data usage.
On a more specific note, Did you at any point opt out of the Vodafone data roaming cap?
if not then the maximum charge Vodafone can levy against your usage is £100 outside of the EU.
If you did opt out though, i'm afraid you are on your own.