Vodafone Sure Signal

[sparkiemike]

To follow on from my previous post, I have managed to get it working.

I went back to the equipment that was supplied by BT.

There is the BT Openreach DSL modem (Echolife HG612 - FTTC VDSL NTE) connected to the phone line via the DSL port. The DSL modem is connected from the LAN1 port to the BT 2Wire Gateway (2701HGV-C) on the red fibre port with the UTP cable.

I have the rest of my LAN and the VSS plugged into the Ethernet LAN ports on the 2Wire gateway.

So it would appear that the issue is with the Vigor 2750 router?

[Jimfew]

Hi sparkiemike, I am not sure I understand. Can you explain the effective change you made from the non-working setup to your working arrangement. Sorry to be thick but you are the first person to offer hope!

Thanks, Jim.

[sparkiemike]

Jim, when I got BT infinity for my business I was supplied a DSL modem and router (two separate devices i.e. BT Openreach DSL modem (Echolife HG612 - FTTC VDSL NTE) and the BT 2Wire Gateway (2701HGV-C).

All I have done is removed the DrayTek Vigor2750 (disconnected and switched off) and plugged back the kit that was supplied. I had to forward the ports on the BT 2-Wire Gateway. The other network settings remained the same DHCP etc

The VSS connected very quickly after that.

It is not ideal because the features are very limited on the 2-wire, it does not support the n standard for wireless, has no vpn support and I can't block outgoing posts e.g port 25 to name but a few.

I have sent a email to Draytek to see what they think.

EDIT: to add the settings on the BT 2-wire are the same - it uses PPoE, the MTU is set to 1492

[Jimfew]

OK thanks sparkiemike. I think the problem lies with how the router handles large packets (with a 1500 MTU for example, like from the VSS). It seems the Drayteks (and I have also tried a Netgear router) just discard the packets (I forced my 2820 Draytek to a 1500 MTU via a telnet command and everything stopped on my network). The BT Home Hub, on the other hand seems to break up the packets to make them suitable for a 1492 MTU network like infinity. This is not ideal as extra packets have a habit of slowing down the transfer but in the case of the VSS this is not a problem as it only needs slow speeds. It also seems that the Vodafone servers can accept fragmented packets.

So, it seems that the Draytek is the problem using PPPoE without being able to accept large packets from the internal network and converting them to MTU 1492 but the BT hub can.

You say you have e-mailed Drayetk. I would like to do the same. Can you advise what e-mail address you used?

Many thanks,

Jim.

[sparkiemike]

I have just used the form on their website, I have used it once before and they were quick to respond, nothing yet though

http://www.draytek.co.uk/support/techquery.html

If I get anything useful then I will post here.

[Jimfew]

Excellent. I have done the same. If I get anything, I will also post here.

Perhaps between us we will get to the bottom. I must admit, I do like a tricky technical issue!

[Jimfew]

OK Draytek have replied but it is not very helpful. They want me to run a load of sniff tests which means physically moving loads of kit.Unfortunately I cannot do this so I guess Draytek are not able to help. It is curious that they claim not to have had this problem before but the forums do have issues with the Drayteks on BT Infinity and the VSS going back into early 2011. Perhaps there was never a solution found.

They did say that the 2750 had a jumbo packet instability which is corrected in the latest firmware upgrade (released recently). Did you do an upload on your 2750 before you found it did not work with the VSS?

Jim.

[sparkiemike]

The asked me to do the same, but the telnet commands are not the same on the 2750 as previous versions of the vigor range. So am waiting for Draytek to tell what commends to use. I can telnet in, but none of the old telnet commands work as before.

Whilst trying to find a fix I did update of the firmware, so it has the latest release version (not the beta), but made no difference to VSS

[Jimfew]

OK Draytek have closed my ticket and said that without the sniff traces there is nothing more they can do. They did say the Sure Signal is a particularly difficult device to get to work on PPPoE systems and customers should not move ISP without considering the termination of their VSS.

So, unless the problem is diagnosed and Draytek change their design (not even sure this is possible) or the VSS is redesigned to work with the more modern PPPoE in the UK, I will need to move mobile phones. I have bought some O2 phones and they work fine here. I now need to wait for the contracts to wind down on the Vodafone ones.

If I had known this at the beginning I would not have moved ISP. Beware!

Jim.

[sparkiemike]

I am providing them with traces at the moment. Will post when I know something.

[Jimfew]

What a star you are sparkiemike. If you manage to get Draytek to say something helpful after all this effort, I'll buy you a pint.

[sparkiemike]

Just to update from Darytek support, they can see the fragmented packets from the VSS. No solutions yet and the infomation has been forwarded to HQ.

They have not made any promises about resolving it, but it is still an open case.

[James]

Hi sparkiemike,

Thanks for the update here, please keep us posted as it will be very interesting to see what they say.

James

[sparkiemike]

Thank you James, wouldn't it be a good idea to get a two prong attack on this issue. What do the manufacturers of the VSS device have to say about fragment packets. Perhaps this is something Vodafone could take up with them?

[Jimfew]

I have to say that we (as a team) believe that the problem is how fragmented packets are dealt with when they are sent from the VSS. I must admit, the likely early solution to this is if the Draytek can be updated to deal with fragmented packets. They have already done an update to their Vigor 2750 to stop the instability of the fragmented packets from a device that sends out 1500 MTU packets over a fixed 1492 MTU network. This enables the 2750 to operate but does not allow the packets through the router effectively disabling the VSS. My 2750 was so unstable that I cannot use it and the 2820 is OK but will not allow any fragmented packets through.

Has Vodafone looked at this problem previously with the VSS?

[Simon]

Hi Jimfew

All of the official BT products have been tested with the Sure Signal device and are confirmed as compatible. Where the router used is not a BT product I'd suggest in this instance to switch back the BT equipment for Sure Signal usage as we know that this will work with the device.

Thanks

Simon

[Jimfew]

Hi Simon

Thanks for that but my BT Fibre hub does not work with the VSS. BT now say that it will never work with their hub as the MTU required is 1500 which is outside the official spec for PPPoE networks of 1492 in the UK. They say their is nothing more they can do until the VSS is re-designed to comply with the proper specs. They say they never gave a clear test verdict to Vodafone of the use of the VSS on their network. They said it depends on the hub used and their fibre hub was not guaranteed.

BT say that the VSS is NOT supported on their fibre network. They are adamant about this and I have confirmed this with their third line fibre team.

In any case, I need the advanced features of the Drayteks for my business which the BT hub does not supply.

It is not such a problem now as I have purchased O2 phones which work better here so I don't need the VSS now, I'm just waiting for the Vodafone contracts to run down on my old phones.

Jim.

[sparkiemike]

Simon I will support Jim's view on this. The BT kit is not good with very limited features.

I wish Vodafone would be proactive about this and take the bull by horns and deal with the technical issues. Get your technical guys to talk to BT's technical guys and make the VSS work with anybody's kit. I don't have problems with browsing, email, skype, video streaming and my VPNs - so why is the VSS not compatible???

As soon as my contacts run out - I will be off to O2 as well.

I had a cold call from Vodafone yesterday trying to sell me additional services, the call was very short when I told him the Vodafone service was terrible, needless to say I declined his offers.

[Lee]

Hey guys,

I can promise you that your thoughts and feedback has been passed on.

It's very interesting as we've been working very closely with BT and have sent units to them that we know are in working order for BT to configure their products with the VSS and on each occasion, using either version 1 or 2 of the VSS, they've come back to us claiming they've not experienced any issues with set-up and configuration, so long as the supplied equipment is used.

As I say, I've passed your comments on to our support teams. I can't guarantee an update but I expect we will be in touch with BT about this.

Cheers,

Lee

[sparkiemike]

Thanks for the update.

... "so long as the supplied equipment is used"

That is no good enough - we want to be able to use our own equipment.

What ever information Vodafone have made available please make available to others. Or better yet deal with the fragmented packets.