Vodafone Sure Signal

[mlcook]

I'm thinking of moving from O2 back to Vodafone after 17 years away. The availaibility of Sure Signal may help to swing the decision.

I have two properties, one in the UK, one in the Czech Republic. Both properties have cable broadband running at 50 Mbps downstream, 5 Mbps upstream. Both sites are running with Draytek routers (2820Vn in the UK, 2920Vn in CZ). I have a PPTP VPN connection operating between the two Draytek Routers.

I can configure static routes on the Drayteks so that internet traffic originating on the Czech LAN routes via the UK WAN connection (or vice-versa).

Has anyone else tried this kind of setup? Will I be able to get the Sure Signal up and running in the Czech Republic?

Regards,

Vax

[chrise]

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mlcook wrote:

I can configure static routes on the Drayteks so that internet traffic originating on the Czech LAN routes via the UK WAN connection (or vice-versa).

Fun stuff - but you can't use the SS this way.

Will I be able to get the Sure Signal up and running in the Czech Republic?

No.

[FelixDaHousecat]

I concur with chrise, the VSS won't work abroad. as far as I'm aware it's a uk only product...

FDH

[mlcook]

Thanks for the responses guys.

The part I am not getting is how the Sure Signal unit itself or the Vodafone head-end will be able to detect the location of the device. Geo-location of the WAN IP address will not help - it will appear to be in the UK. Does the Sure Signal have a built in GPS chip?

Vax

[philip42h]

The VF doesn't have GPS (it wouldn't, typically, be able to 'see' the satellite from 'indoors' even if it did!)

Your scheme should work ... in theory at least. As you've noted already VF restrict operation to UK IP addresses and your use of a proxy should overcome that hurdle. It is however, against the Ts&Cs, and not permitted by VF.

Other interesting challenges might arise in terms of the postcode used to register the 'foreign' SS, and roaming to and from the 'local' mast would be 'different'. You might well also have problems in terms of round trip latency.

An amusing idea all the same and almost worth the experiment!

[mlcook]

Thanks for your input Philip. I am not minded to break the T&Cs and although the technical challenge is tempting I will not be moving from O2 to Vodafone just to try it out!

It does seem that Vodafone are limiting the market for the Sure Signal and hence their revenues by constraining the T&Cs in this way. Why should they care two hoots where the SureSignal is located as long as they are getting my traffic? Its all very old-telco isn't it. As it is I will continue using my VoIP service when in the Czech Republic and my O2 mobile service at home. Lose-lose for Vodafone.

My round trip delay between my two LANs is about 60ms. Thats higher than the approx 20ms I get on a UK-only connection but I find this acceptable when using my IP phones in the Czech Republic in conjuction with my IP PBX in the UK. The Sure Signal ought to work similarly well if Vodafone decide to loosen up a bit at some point in the future.

Vax

[Trev]

Hi mlcook.

The VSS (Vodafone Sure Signal) is a UK only product at the moment. It does require a geographic UK IP address to work, and a UK postcode to register the device to. The postcode is a requirement so the emergency services are aware of your location when an emergency call is made via the VSS.

At this moment in time it’s not offered, advertised or supported for any usage outside of the UK. In section 3 of the Sure Signal Terms and Conditions, it does specifically specify that the unit can only be used within the UK.

Let me know if you’ve any further questions.

Regards

Trev

eForum Team

[mlcook]

Thanks Trev.

I understand the need for a UK IP address and UK postcode to register the device to. I would meet those requirements.

I also understand it is probably uneconomic for you to provide technical support to people like me who have a fairly complex (at least compared with typical domestic users) VPN network. I would not be asking for support.

So why the statement in the Terms and Conditions to limit it's use exclusively to the UK. Why should you care where I plug it in?

Vax

If I meet

[SynthFG]

The truth is the setup should work providing the latancy issues arn't too bad for the NTP

think it's something like max120ms before the thing gives up

however you may run into issues with interfernace with the foreign networks as there's no guarentee that the SS will work smoothly with these,and could in theory cause issues with all kinds of wireless services that may share these operating frequencies or there resonances

Using this unlicenced device on these frequencies is likely to be highly illigal in the Czech republic

After all how would you feal if your neighbour was using a device that prevented your mobile working at home, let alone one that interfeered with emergancy service communications in the area around your house

[mlcook]

Yes, I think I already said I am not minded to break the terms and conditions. What I am trying to understand is why the terms and conditions are unnecessarily restrictive.

Points about spectrum allocation and legality feel very much like a red herring. After all 2G and 3G frequencies are harmonised across Europe and Vodafone actually sell the Sure Signal hardware in the Czech Republic - http://www.vodafone.cz/male-firmy/telefony_zarizeni/3gzona/

So what is the real reason?

Vax

[mitchja]

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mlcook wrote:

So what is the real reason?

Vax

That's easy, so Vodafone force you to pay their outragously over-priced roaming charges 

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[Lee]

Hi there mlcook,

I can't answer this right now so will send an email to our support teams and will come back if I get anything I can share with you.

Cheers,

Lee

eForum Team

[Lee]

Hi mlcook,

Thanks for your patience while I obtained the answer for this one.

It's actually an OFCOM regulation.

The VSS acts as an antenna which radiates on the UK licensed spectrum. If you were to take this overseas you'd be radiating a UK spectrum on another country's spectrum range which is not allowed.

Cheers,

Lee

eForum Team

[mlcook]

Thanks for your response Lee,

This answer doesn't make sense though. Here's why:

1. OFCOM don't have any juristiction outside the UK.

2. The Sure Signal hardware sold in the UK and the Czech Republic is identical and utlises the exact same frequency range.

Applying the logic of your argument it would also be illegal for me to use my UK mobile phone in the Czech Republic. This is clearly wrong. I do go along with the reasoning that the Sure Signal shouldn't be used outside the EU where frequency allocations might be different and conflicts could occur. For example using it the US could get you into trouble with the FCC. 'UK only' is unnecessarily restrictive though.

Could I ask you to double check with your contacts what the real reason is please?

Vax

[chrise]

Offcom don't have juristiction outside the UK, but any other country will have an equivalent counterpart, who DO have juristiction.  They won't let any random person transmit on the frequencies in question.

And has been said, Vodafone presumeably stand to make more out of their standard roaming charges (which your plan would avoid).

[Lee]

Hi mlcook,

I'm sorry, but what you are trying to achieve will not work.

Thanks,

Lee

eForum Team

[cborrman]

technically you are half there, the UK IP address should avoid any geoblocking, however:

1) the sure signal uses vpn back to VF, you may have vpn over vpn issues

2) the sure signal interacts with adjacent cells (up to 10 in total) and so you would at best need to have the sure signal in a blackspot within your house if you indeed have one (i.e. a basement) away from foreign networks and turn your phone on and off each time as the network will not hand you off from czech cell 0123456 to UK post code XYZ.

the reasons for this are not money grabbing but are slightly ofcom related, in that Vodafone UK who operates the sure signal paid 4 billion sterling to acquire a licence for that spectrum in the UK only, they do not have a licence to operate in the czech republic or anywhere else, to do this they need to "roam" onto another network who owns the license for that country.

Finally, if you did have an emergency call from your phone on your UK address by mistake for example, you may have your front door knocked down by the emergency services while you are away... nice!

[chorotega]

It's not Ofcom I'd be worried about, it's the Czech Government. If they detect you doing using a Sure Signal they will prosecute you for setting up an unlicensed Mobile Network in the Czech Republic as you do not have a license for the radio spectrum you are transmitting. Another local network will own that spectrum. The penalties would be huge.
You have been warned. .
.

[Higgins1991]

Well if Vodafone actually stopped ripping us off with roaming charges for using a sister network, people would not try to do this. Yes, I know each network is a subsidiary but imagine the vast profits Vodafone would make as people  who travel a lot would be inticed by the free calls and move to Vodafone. It angers me how multinational networks continue to get away with this.

[SynthFG]

The EU has just acted on roaming and data charges to bring them down in the near future

If you are abroard alot and want to avoid them then get a local sim

Also whilst the SS may be the same hardware in the UK and the Czech republic the operating frequency ranges will be different as VF UK are unlikely to be operating on exactly the same frequencies as VF Czech so you will most likely be interfering with somebody elses network