Is it theft?

[jonb]

Let's look at something from one side first

Suppose a fictitious company, lets call them "Wpebgpof", sells certain goods out of a shop, and sells contracts to use those goods on its magic-airwaves network. Now, suppose you went into one of these shops and were specifically told not to take any of their goods. However, you did take one and no-one noticed. But later you return the goods, and openly admit to "Wpebgpol" that you had taken it, despite being told not to, but had since returned it.

Now, would that be theft? And would/should "Wpebgpof" take legal action against you?

Now lets reverse the roles.

You are a customer of "Wpebgpof". You pay them a monthly amount use their goods on their magic-airwaves network for a specified duration. Due to repeated failures by "Wpebgpof" they finally offer to release you from contract some months early and without charging you the remaining monthly payments which you agreed you would pay. But due to yet more failures the "final" bill shows that they will be charging you almost G200 (G = a Groat, your local currency) for the outstanding duration. You make it very plain to them that they are not authorised to take any money as this is their error. They simper and grovel obsequiously in apology (now we really are in a world of fiction aren't we :)), admit their mistake, assure you they will not take your hard-earned Groats, and promise they have sorted the matter out. However, they then do take the money from you, but return it before you have time to check its hiding place under your mattress. They then tell you that they did this.

Now, is this theft? It is basically the same thing viewed the opposite way round. Would you prosecute?

[BandOfBrothers]

Either taking something from a shop or indeed finding something in the street and then keeping it is theft. 

As such that person is open to have the full weight of the law used against them even if they then try to return it. 

If a person has something taken from them even though there is supporting evidence to confirm it would not then this isnt theft in so much of the word but instead an error of the system. 

This is why bank systems have the Direct Debit Guarantees and every business has customer service departments and if required Omsbudsmans to remedy it. 

Their is a difference between an intent to steal, keep a found item.and an error of a procedure or system. 

[jonb]

Thanks for the clarification.

So, if an individual was to deliberately take something from an organisation, knowing full well they are not allowed to, but fully intending to return it,  then it is theft.

If an organisation was to deliberately take something from an individual, knowing full well that they are not allowed to, but fully intending to return it, then it is an "error of the system".

Nice to know organisations have this distinction (and better lawyers i am guessing )

[Getafix]

Before a Direct Debit is taken, you should get notification of how much they are taking in the Form of a Bill.

If you reckon that you have been overcharged, then you can challenge it and they will raise a Credit for the overcharge before the Direct Debit is taken.

But yes, the onus is on you to check.

[wwhyte92]

@Getafix,

Just on your point, you mention that before the direct debit is taken we should receive a bill detailing how much will be taken. In my previous experience a bill may be generated which is incorrect, it is queried with Vodafone who indicate it has been reduced/change, but then they refuse to issue a revised bill to confirm how much will be taken by the direct debit.

Whether this is a systems issue (which is what I'm often told) or not, this leads to having multiple instances where the invoice produced by Vodafone and which I keep for records does not match up with the expenditure from my bank account.

[Getafix]

Vodaofne will not reissue a Bill. Technically no one reissues a Bill.

Any errors are adjusted in the Next bill.

If you spot and error, and they agree that it is error, then Credit can be applied before Direct Debit is taken.

And the amount collected will be reduced. The Credit will show in the next Bill with reference relating to First Bill.

There is one issue with Vodafone Billing, but will only affect a few customer who have Separate Direct Debits set up on the same account with different numbers. The Credits are not applied correctly for this billing arrangements.

[BandOfBrothers]

Hi @jonb

As a fellow customer what I wrote earlier is my take on this.

[jonb]

@BandOfBrothers

---

@BandOfBrothers wrote:

Hi @jonb

As a fellow customer what I wrote earlier is my take on this.

---

And i thank you for that. My question was a geniune one, wich i wrapped in my own (no doubt childish and pathetic) sense of humour, and your answer and view are appreciated.