Vodafone Sure Signal - Is It Compatible With PPPoE Connections?

[s4vva]

After a long time testing and reconfiguring several makes of routers I have come the conclusion that the Sure Signal is not compatible with PPPoE connections.

If anyone does have it working please post the details here (router manufacturer, ISP etc.) I would love someone to prove me wrong!

@Vodafone - Are there any plans for a firmware/device upgrade that does support PPPoE?

[dmberry]

I've had word back from our Sure Signal project team. They've advised that the Sure Signal isn't designed to be used with PPPoE, in order to make it fully compatible a fundamental change in the actual Sure Signal hardware would be required, as such there are currently no plans to support PPPoE

I think it's important here that the right question was asked to the project team.


I'm quite happy to be wrong, but I don't think it was, and sometimes the way you phrase a question can have significant implications to the answer.

What I think most people are describing here is the following.

SureSignal > Firewall/Router > ADSL Modem (PPPoE To PPPoA Bridge) > PPPoA Connection to ISP (Most UK Based Providers)

I Think people here are not asking that the SureSignal support the termination and handling of a PPPoE connection, but that when a SureSignal is placed behind a router or firewall, which has it's upstream connection provided by a PPPoE to an PPPoA bridge, that the suresignal works.

Many Business class devices do not come with Internal ADSL Modems, so have to use a PPPoE to PPPoA Bridge to connect to an ISP.

I'm also having the same problem with PFSense Firewalls, that are connected via Draytek Vigor 120 ADSL Modems operating as PPPoE to PPPoA Bridges.

If the answer is still the same, could we please have a more technical explanation of the reasons for the limitations.

[grmartin]

If it were really true that "PPPoe is not supported", then surely anyone on a 'BE' connection would have a problem?

It seems much more likely that there is some fundamental problem with the Draytek modems (110/120) that is causing the issues. (And, incidentally, I don't see how Vodafone could be expected to forsee or test for and overcome issues with every router/modem/firewall/firmware configuration available.)

[UKenGB]

Hi guys,

I've had word back from our Sure Signal project team. They've advised that the Sure Signal isn't designed to be used with PPPoE, in order to make it fully compatible a fundamental change in the actual Sure Signal hardware would be required, as such there are currently no plans to support PPPoE.

George
eForum Team

This is the same response to the same question that has been previously asked and it is completely the wrong question. As I have said repeatedly the SureSignal should never support PPPoE directly - it is the wrong protocol for what it has to do. You might as well ask if it supports serial communication.

I also repeat that there are documented instances (on this forum) of the SS working over both PPPoA and PPPoE connections to the Internet so that is not the issue. Truthfully there should be no issue since we are dealing with standards here and any networking device that moves ethernet packets ought to be able to move the SS's packets. The fact this is not the case means there are incompatibilities between what the SS expects and what some hardware provides and since the common factor is VF's SS, that is the first place to look for a solution.

The SS tries to set up a VPN connection to VF's servers and also wants to use other data packets outside the VPN tunnel for signalling. This can fail even over hardware that is proved to support exactly the same flavour of VPN as used by the SS. So what is it about this VPN and additional signalling that some hardware doesn't like, even when it is specifically designed to pass any ethernet packet?

What I do know is:-
The Draytek Vigor 120 currently does NOT allow a SS to work, whatever the router in use on the LAN side.
Apple's Airports can be used as routers as long as you don't use the Vigor 120 as the PPPoE to PPPoA bridge.
The Draytek 2820 and 2710 routers work perfectly for the SS, as does a BT Voyager 220V and an indeterminate model of router by US Robotics.
Draytek have ignored my request for assistance in this matter.
Vodafone seem to be suffering headless chicken syndrome over this issue.

[dmberry]

Just some additional information,

I've also tested with the Draytek Vigor 100 and a Netgear DG834v4 as PPPoE to PPPoA bridges, and these exhibit the same behaviour.

[thermionic]

it is completely the wrong question

I completely agree, the quality of "support" from Vodafone is laughable.

On one call to them to troubleshoot an issue with a Cisco ASA firewall on a 100mb leased line connection, I was told that the VSS would only work with a UPNP router, and this person was allegedly a tier 3 support person...

Vodafone need to realise that people want to use the VSS on a wide variety of connections, with a similar variety of routers and firewalls. If there is some alleged reason that the traffic will fail if it goes over a PPPoE connection, they need to explain why this is, or alternatively explain exactly what it requires from its connection.

I’m also at a complete loss as to why they went for an IPSEc implementation instead of an SSL one where they could have had a connection at an equivalent level of security that only required a single port, but this is a moot point.

The quality issue is howver throughout their supply chain, take a look at the Sagem home page (http://www.sagem.com) and see the “BRAODBAND” typo...

[thermionic]

If there is some alleged reason that the traffic will fail if it goes over a PPPoE connection, they need to explain why this is, or alternatively explain exactly what it requires from its connection

oh the power of the Internet 🙂

The 4th Q on the FAQ for the IPSec stack that appears to be being used in the VSS is quite insightful.

If the specific implemtation on the VSS is using a long DN and/or RSA key, then the packet might _have_ to be fragmented, and if the PPPoE part of the link has an issue with fragmented UDP packets, then it could cause a problem...

Of course the complete lack of any visibilty of any logs on the VSS means that its not possible to perform an initial "simple" level of diagnosis that might help show if this is the issue, or if it is something else.

So far all of the above is a thought experiment, I won't have the time to try and setup the VSS in the office again untill next week, however, if you are having trouble with a VSS and a PPPoE connection, it might be useful to a/ Set the MTU on the Ethernet side of your router to a smaller size than on your PPPoE link and b/ Use a packet sniffer (Wireshark) to confirm that the Ethernet packets are no larger than the MTU you have set.

[UKenGB]

If there is some alleged reason that the traffic will fail if it goes over a PPPoE connection, they need to explain why this is, or alternatively explain exactly what it requires from its connection.

There isn't a problem with PPPoE. With the right hardware the SS works perfectly over a PPPoE Internet connection.

We need to stop talking about PPPoE and PPPoA as it just confuses those poor souls in Vodafone tech support.

I’m also at a complete loss as to why they went for an IPSEc implementation instead of an SSL one where they could have had a connection at an equivalent level of security that only required a single port, but this is a moot point.

2 more things to be added to "What I know" :-

The SS DOES work over a PPPoE Internet connection as well as a PPPoA based one. (oops, I mentioned the dreaded PPP thing again)

The SS does NOT necessarily work over a connection that works perfectly with other IPSEc VPNs.

[squirrel_nutkin]

BT came 2 weeks ago and upgraded my home adsl line (was creeking under the wait of line loss parameters) to BT Infinity.

They provided a BT Home Hub3 with blue lights to boot, very nice! and a new cream coloured vdsl modem/interface box with 2 ethernet outs. The line speed is now terrific but my VSS does not work anymore. This only happen after I disconnected it and reconnected it again. (normally you leave it running etc) The new Home Hub connects to the Modem using PPPoE.

So I changed back to my old Linksys WRT320n Adsl router (it has the ability to use Ethernet Plug position1 at the rear as a WAN port. Connecting this to the Modem over PPPoE (password needed for BT Infinity to work) still resulted in VSS not working.

I have also experience a problem at another site where VSS was working until we added a Managed Communication/Daisy Comms Bonded adsl solution. The output from the Bonded adsl is PPPoE,via Cisco 1841 router.

There is also a  BT adsl line and router (same segment) uses a BT adsl 2wire router that I use for  DHCP but Inow  route all traffic (lower metric value) out over the Bonded adsl because it is faster,  However I can't force the VSS to use the adsl line (as they are not unconfigurable) so it automatically goes out throught the linked PPPoE, hence they won't work.

I must admit it has been a frustrating time recently as this was baffling me until finally I find all this information about other users having issues with PPPoE, now I begin to understand why things have gone wrong.

The trick is (as someone has already written) to power on the VSS when there is an adsl connection and then switch over to PPPoE,  I suspect that this issue is a Setup negotiation process issue, so once a VSS link has become established, they will continue to work over PPPoE until the power is disturbed or because of some other interuption, perhaps server down at Vodafone HQ. Anyway, these are my findings, but nothing more. Hope this helps!

[RichNewman]

Well, a couple of days ago I tried my SureSignal on my (small packet size) PPPoE connection. It seems that since the latest firmware updates, it now works fine!

NOTHING has changed at my end. Same modem, same network, same ISP, same everything. Now works. Great.

[Majik]

It's still not working for me.